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RE: documentation discussion (was: Re: [mv] IF tag: [if sessionlogin] doesn't work?)
****** message to minivend-users from Birgitt Funk <birgitt@booktraders.com> ******
On Sat, 25 Mar 2000, Christopher Thompson wrote:
> ****** message to minivend-users from "Christopher Thompson" <ct@arborinternet.com> ******
>
> FYI
>
> Mike Heins at one time had a catalog set up on the minivend.com site
> specifically for the documentation. I cut up MV3.12 documentation so that
> each section and tag was its own file (even ones with no section in the
> current docs) and uploaded it all. It was all in SDF format. It was
> running under RCS with the goal of being able to have many people work on
> the docs by checking in and out the small pieces. I understand he has CVS
> running which is what is really needed.
>
> There was a lot of very good discussion on the mvdocs mail list and a good
> template for documenting each tag was created. There was an outline for an
> overall reorganization of the docs. I think one guy even generated a PDF
> version.
>
> At that point it died for many reasons, but a lot of this ground work has
> been done.
>
The analysis of why it died is what is needed and then of course some
magic medicine to revive it from its half-death status. 8-)
Mark and the others should try to read through the discussions of last
year, if it is still saved somewhere. Before the wheel gets reinvented
again and then gets stuck in the mud. 8-)
I think the problem too is that one always has some new enthusiastic
MV-users all pumped up with good will, donating server space, bandwidth,
and administration services. The fact is that all that was available
for free on the minivend.com server long ago.
The project always dies at the point where the real work actually starts,
in writing up the texts, getting agreement about it and then getting
it incorporated in the existing docs.
Someone mentioned something about we should put the money where our
mouth is or something like that...
Because I am hundred percent sure that I am not capable of understanding
the source code to participate technically, I like to make it up this
way (with regards that in the past I had voiced some doubts about the
documentation which lead to the first round of the documentation project
as it was offered and initiated by Mike Heins thereafter):
Under the following set-up, if approved by Mike Heins and all of you,
I offer a cash incentive to anyone who participates in trying to enhance,
change, add, improve, rewrite the existing docs on the minivend.com
server.
1. People, who think their Perl skills are strong enough to understand
the source code, should sign up via a form linked to from the
main minivend.com home page may be under a name like "Ongoing
Documentation Enhancements" or so.
2. The sign-up should be anonymous to all other participants and
only the total number of participants should be known. The names
of the participants should be known just to Mike Heins (and in the end
me, I guess.) and otherwise kept private.
3. The sign-up period should be of a fixed number of days (two weeks ?)
4. The total number of participants should be posted and known to
everyone on the list.
5. A _complete_ list of _all_ MiniVend and MiniMate tags should be
generated after the sign-up procedure is over.
6. The number of tags should be devided by the number of participants
and the tag-load per participant made known.
7. Assuming that the load will be more than one tag per participant,
each participant should work on one "first-try"-tag to see how
long it takes him to write up a verbal description and to write
up a template (most probably one could still use the old one we
had - I don't know). I like to get an idea how long it takes the
Perl gurus to do this.
8. Participants post their writings to the list. A two to three
day period of discussion, editing, and incorporation time into
the existing docs between other list members and Mike Heins is
given. (length of this open for discussion)
9. The text is officially integrated and put online, agreed upon
by the list and Mike Heins.
10.The participant gets paid per tag-document donation, if....
-- all tags by all signed-up participants have been
delivered
-- no one gets paid if even _one_ signed-up participant fails to
deliver the promised write-up
11. A participant who discovers during the process of figuring out
the source code that the task is beyond him, should try to post
questions to the list and hoping to get some hint from the master
guru.
12. If 11. doesn't work the participant has privately
just known to Mike Heins (and in the end me) to resign as
participant and the work given to another participant who can
do the job. It is a must that another participant needs to be
found to take over.
Never thought I had so militant ideas...
but I guess what I am after is to support the official, free minivend
documentation on the minivend.com server, as this is the place most likely
everyone will look for it.
May be Mike could add a link to a "User provided code"-page
from his home page, so that there is space for links etc. to other
sites like linuxia.de and others who might have useful stuff on their
own sites and servers. (MySQL site, which I like a lot, has that for
example).
If you think about it, it's a little bit like these pledges for
public television, where you donate money and get a little "thank
you" gift, when you support you public TV stations.
Here you give your work and get a little "thank you" money to support
a public, free documentation. Simple, just noone is allowed to leave
the boat and if one does, everybody gets punished... 8-)
So, now don't ask me how much money we are talking about. Little. And
I like to know the complete number of tags and the complete number
of participants and a reasonable estimate of average time needed for
one tag.
And I like to get feedback. May be you all will discover that
you just like the docs "as they are" ... 8-)
Wouldn't that be a surprise ?
Birgitt
> I have an example of rearranged documentation for MV3.12. If anyone wants
> to look at it, email me. And, I still have all of the SDF files, the build
> scripts, etc. somewhere.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-minivend-users@minivend.com
> > [mailto:owner-minivend-users@minivend.com]On Behalf Of Ed LaFrance
> > Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 8:35 AM
> > To: minivend-users@minivend.com
> > Subject: RE: documentation discussion (was: Re: [mv] IF tag: [if session
> > login] doesn't work?)
> >
> >
> > ****** message to minivend-users from Ed LaFrance
> > <newmedia@newmediaems.com> ******
> >
> > Wow - I started something! I'm surprised - but pleased - that
> > the database
> > idea caught on. My original though was that the 'docbase' would be
> > distributed with minivend, and would be an installation option
> > when using
> > makecat ("install the documentation database: y/n"). The most current
> > version would also be running alongside the catalog demo at
> > minivend.com.
> >
> > The idea of separate site for it is contrary to the spirit of the
> > suggestion, I think. Third party sites are never bad, and if
> > it works, so
> > be it, but what started this whole thing was a posting from Mike saying
> > that he is still interested and willing to expand and improve
> > the docs if
> > some users would put their money where their mouths are and
> > help. I assume
> > this would mean the "official" docs, not a third-party derivative,
> > distributed or maintained separately.
> >
> > So we have yet to hear from Mike himself. I don't mean to take
> > the wind
> > from anyone's sails, but I think the time and effort needs to
> > go into that
> > which users are most likely to use: the official Minivend docs.
> >
> > - Ed L.
> >
> > At 07:03 AM 3/25/00 -0800, you wrote:
> > >****** message to minivend-users from David Gindelberger
> > ><davidgindelberger@yahoo.com> ******
> > >
> > >Eran, Chris (and all interested parties)- WOW! this
> > >is a great start! I would like to use Linux if
> > >possible. I am most familiar with MV under the
> > >"unicies" (unixes?), - that is if I get to help out!
> > >
> > >I think Mike should have the final say on the domain
> > >name, but maybe we could throw out some obvious
> > >suggestions like "mvdocs.org", "minivenddocs.org" etc.
> > >The .com, .net, and .org are available for these two.
> > >
> > >
> > >Anyways, lets throw a few names around and let Mike
> > >decide then we can take the discussion to direct
> > >e-mail.
> > >
> > >I'll be out of pocket for a few days (going to San
> > >Francisco for the ACS meeting - WooHoo!). But I'll
> > >try to get on one of the public network stations at
> > >the meeting.
> > >
> > >Lets keep the ball rolling!
> > >
> > >Dave
> > >
> > >
> > >--- Eran Binyamin Zeitoun <eran_zeitoun@karmail.com>
> > >wrote:
> > > > ****** message to minivend-users from "Eran
> > > > Binyamin Zeitoun" <eran_zeitoun@karmail.com>
> > > > ******
> > > >
> > > > Dave,
> > > >
> > > > Well... Bandwidth..., Hmm... i think i can give some
> > > > of our 4MB bandwidth in
> > > > the office...,
> > > > And since we are hardware distributers.. a disk
> > > > space... (Up to 18gb i think
> > > > will be enough)...
> > > > with a e-mail server..., I also can donate any
> > > > domain name choosen and buy
> > > > it as an appricate
> > > > to this wonderful list...
> > > >
> > > > Linux or NT?
> > > >
> > > > Choose... and i will setup a box...
> > > >
> > > > Ofcourse i think we need to get mike's approval...,
> > > > we can also make a mirror to mike's site...
> > > > And also a test box for developers who wants to test
> > > > things...
> > > >
> > > > Guys?, what do you say?
> > > >
> > > > Eran.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: owner-minivend-users@minivend.com
> > > > [mailto:owner-minivend-users@minivend.com]On Behalf
> > > > Of David Gindelberger
> > > > Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 1:39 AM
> > > > To: minivend-users@minivend.com
> > > > Subject: Re: documentation discussion (was: Re: [mv]
> > > > IF tag: [if session
> > > > login] doesn't work?)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ****** message to minivend-users from David
> > > > Gindelberger
> > > > <davidgindelberger@yahoo.com> ******
> > > >
> > > > I love the database idea. I was thinking of
> > > > proposing
> > > > a site running (what else) but MV. We could allow
> > > > subscribers of the mailing list add examples and
> > > > recommend revisions, and put in "tips and tricks".
> > > > Kinda like real-time "open source" docs. I don't
> > > > know
> > > > if this has been tried before, and may be difficult
> > > > to
> > > > manage. I can look into hosting it myself if this
> > > > sounds interesting, or if somebody has bandwith to
> > > > spare?
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > > --- Mark Stosberg <mark@summersault.com> wrote:
> > > > > ****** message to minivend-users from Mark
> > > > > Stosberg <mark@summersault.com> ******
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > In many of the list postings, in which people
> > > > > complain about not having
> > > > > > information, it often turns out that they do
> > > > have
> > > > > it (in the docs, FAQ, Tag
> > > > > > Ref, etc), they are just not FINDING it, because
> > > > > they are not looking in
> > > > > > the right place - which is often not the most
> > > > > obvious place. I usually
> > > > > > have to look in more than one spot to find the
> > > > > explanation or example I
> > > > > > need. Sometimes I do a text search of the
> > > > entire
> > > > > docs to find all
> > > > > > instances of a term or phrase.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So how about doing the docs as a Minivend
> > > > > database, with search pages,
> > > > > > cross-referencing links, categorization, etc.?
> > > > > Distributed with Minivend
> > > > > > as part of the demo catalog(s). Maybe a change
> > > > in
> > > > > presentation would make
> > > > > > them more useful and effective. Some parts
> > > > would
> > > > > have to be rewritten to
> > > > > > be more modular and less of an "essay", but much
> > > > > of the content is easily
> > > > > > adapted right now.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ed, I have a similiar experience. I find a full
> > > > text
> > > > > search for a term
> > > > > is often the best way to find what I want in the
> > > > > docs, although
> > > > > sometimes I don't always pick the best term to
> > > > use.
> > > > > :) I agree that some
> > > > > restructuring of the current docs is a good idea,
> > > > > but I'm unsure of the
> > > > > best way to go about it. Perhaps a database would
> > > > be
> > > > > the best idea. That
> > > > > could potentionally make it easy for people to
> > > > > submit changes additions
> > > > > through a form like:
> > > > >
> > > > > Name:
> > > > > Usage:
> > > > > Description:
> > > > > Example 1:
> > > > > Example 2:
> > > > > ...
> > > > > Example n:
> > > > >
> > > > > (I like examples. :)
> > > > >
> > > > > I know that the "tags" area of the documentation
> > > > has
> > > > > a mechanized
> > > > > format, so that might be a good starting point for
> > > > a
> > > > > database
> > > > > conversion.
> > > > >
> > > > > -mark
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > ><<-------------------------------------------------------------->>
> > > > > personal website < Summersault
> > > > > Website Design
> > > > > http://mark.stosberg.com/ >
> > > > > http://www.summersault.com/
> > > > > -
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